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 Apocrypha Support 
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Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:51 pm
Posts: 23
Post 
I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea from your post that I sent you a rude pm so I will post what was in it here. That way folks can see that it wasn't rude at all.

Quote:
Howdy!

Hey Dave,
How's it going? I have a question and I hope it doesn't offend you. That is NOT my intention here, believe me.

The question is this: Are you ordained by an organization? I know that you don't have to be to be a preacher, I was just wondering. I have a TON of friends that are "papered" by independent organizations.

I noticed that you said you were a "tech" and I was wondering what kind. I am an electronic machine control tech. That is a fancy name for someone that does PLCs, HMIs, VFDs and other machine control stuff.

At any rate, I was just wondering!

Blessings,
Skip



I hardly find that rude. As for the smileys, there has been WAY more said in jest that was meant in truth than anyone has ever known. That is why there is a scripture that speaks about "malicious" words.


Colossians 3:8 (King James Version) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

1 Peter 2:1 (King James Version) Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

At any rate, I was just trying to build a relationship with you so we could work out some of the "kinks" that seem to keep popping up when you post. I have never been on a forum where the moderator had to delete anything from one of my posts.
This would have been dealt with in private but you brought it out in the open.
If you would like to continue this conversation, please pm me as I don't want to continue this in public. No one needs to be bothered with this other than you and I. I am just trying to help.

Notice, there are no smileys.


Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:52 pm
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:33 am
Posts: 2
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
thank you csterg for letting others add books to your program and for planning to add apocrypha support. I just started to use TW, but I am very impressed at how well made this program is, and it is easy to use too. Plus it looks really good. I really like the copy options when you right click a verse.

thank God for TW.

3John 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. Whoever does good is from God; whoever does evil has not seen God.


Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:51 am
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Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 318
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
Hi Noxot,

Until there are official modules you can download some apocrypha files here : http://www.4shared.com/dir/8270376/747e9454/Shared.html. I can't vouch for them as I haven't read them and don't know who made or hosts them.

Quote:
...and for planning to add apocrypha support.

I hope you're referring to the planned book modules, as I think Costas has made it pretty plain that he's not planning to add support for the apocypha in the Bible view or in official Bible modules. He has given his reasons for this in this thread and I very much respect and support his decision. I hope it doesn't take away from your use and enjoyment of the software.

_________________
Jeff


Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:47 am
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:04 am
Posts: 856
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
Well, more posts on this issue aren't necessary. But I do want to say - I have used e-Sword pretty heavy, PC Study Bible very heavy. And now I am getting into TW VERY heavy! My wife says I am beginning to spend a way too much time on the computer. :?

I have been a very intense software developer for 28 years. I can write Bible programs or just about anything. But I choose not to. Costas, I use your program because it is awesome and allows me to do so much, and still a HUGE amount of things I haven't figured out how to do yet. I appreciate the time and effort you have invested in the program. You have helped many people tremendously.

I have listened to the dialogue bouncing back and forth - and if I understand the people involved, I don't think any of them really means anything bad. It sounds like emotions may have gotten a little carried away - and perhaps folks need to chill out a little, step back a couple steps, get their focus realigned, and then continue on with the work of the Lord.

Just a thought ....

I pray for the Peace of the Lord to flood over all involved, that any contentious spirit of the enemy trying to attack brothers in the Lord be broken, and that each can respect the other and give grace to all.

Amen


Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:33 am
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Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:25 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Panama, Panama
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
It is a great application, even seems to be much better, versatile and customizable than e-Sword, which I have been using for quite a while. The main reason I cannot quit using this latter or replace it completely by "The Word" is because in "The Word" the Deuterocanonical Books are not included in the Bible Window. It is too bad that someone's prejudice and not that much his believes, as stated, affect at that extent the great service that the author might provide to all Christian Denominations. I may not believe that these books are inspired by God either but that would not prevent me from letting other brothers and sisters from other christian denominations make use of them. I just converted some Bible Translations that include this holy books from e-Sword to The Word format and of course I am not able to enjoy from these books. For me, it does not make sense that these Bible Translations which originally include all these books will not have them included in this application. Following this philosophy that reads "I do not believe the Deutorocanonical Books are the Word of God and therefore would never be included in the Bible Window", then the author must never give "his approval" nor his moral support either to allow these Bible Translations to be used in his program AT ALL. Furthermore, he should completely condemn his usage in his application. That is my opinion. :cry: Blessings+


Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:54 pm
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Nederland
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
Please respect the maker of this software and his believe and convictions. There has been enough said about this already, so this is not neccecary to bring it up again and again.

This software is great and you can read and use every book you want in it, also the apocrypha, so I do not understand the fuzz. Or are the extra biblical books more important than the Bible itself?

I hope this topic will be closed.

Kind regards,
Richard


Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:38 pm
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Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 318
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
gennesse wrote:
I hope this topic will be closed.



I might recommend that it not only be closed; but a new sticky made that states Costas' position clearly in one post and let this thread fade into obscurity. I would also consider making the new sticky closed to replies and possibly provide a link to this thread to show that all objections to the author's position have already been adequately answered. I suspect people may just not be thoroughly reading and understanding all the pages in this thread.

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Jeff


Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:54 am
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Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:04 pm
Posts: 1
Post Re:
csterg wrote:
Hi Dave,
you have made good points and I appreciate them, really.
The issue with apocrypha is not that simple to explain, although it is clear in my mind. If i was creating a software just to make money, i would have thought differently. But I didn't invest all these years in TW for money!

I feel I have a responsibility towards God about it. I hear your arguments, and to be honest i have thought EXACTLY the same things when i decided what to do. I decided to go with what i read and understand in God's word and with my conscience.

Some quick answers to the points you say:
1. I don't have any "KJV with apocrypha" module. I will have a KJV Bible, and i will have a "KJV-apocrypha book comanion". I am sure you get the difference here.


I'm sorry but you have the DRC or Douay-Rheims Challoner revision listed. This is a very specific revision to a very specific translation that does in fact have the deuterocanonical books. I did not see where it was suggested that the Bibles are misrepresented and incomplete. I would not have replied to this except for the attitude regarding these books and this specific post.

The Septuagint, which is not the MT and which everyone knows to have these books, is incomplete.

I understand you suffer technical difficulties, but you're not giving people the Septuagint. You're giving people your personal private version of the Septuagint, minus a substantial amount of text. This software is not free. It took time to download, install and install the Bibles only to find out that they're missing 20% or more of the Old Testament text because of your personal prejudices. This was not mentioned next to the Bibles. You're deciding what is and is not Scripture for people. Since you're not charging, that's fine, but that still doesn't mean that it's free for the people who use it. If you want to insert your personal prejudice and change the texts of Scripture to suit yourself you're certainly allowed to do that since it's your software, but you should at least make it clear in the Bible listing that the books most people expect to find in those translations will not be there because you think that they don't belong, and so that they don't go looking for the Douay-Rheims Challoner Revision only to find out that it's really the Douay-Rheims Costas Revision.


Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:25 pm
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Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:09 pm
Posts: 8551
Location: Corfu, Greece
Post Re: Re:
Hello bengland, welcome to the forum.

bengland wrote:
I'm sorry but you have the DRC or Douay-Rheims Challoner revision listed. This is a very specific revision to a very specific translation that does in fact have the deuterocanonical books. I did not see where it was suggested that the Bibles are misrepresented and incomplete. I would not have replied to this except for the attitude regarding these books and this specific post.

Thank you for the suggestion.
I think you have a good point here: i should mention in the downloads area that this module does not include the deuterocanonical books.

What is the attitude you refer to? There is no 'attitude' here, just opinion, which has been stated clearly and with every respect to people with a different opinion.

Quote:
The Septuagint, which is not the MT and which everyone knows to have these books, is incomplete.

Correct.

Quote:
I understand you suffer technical difficulties, but you're not giving people the Septuagint. You're giving people your personal private version of the Septuagint, minus a substantial amount of text.

Well, as i said elsewhere, the issue is not primarily technical.
Furthermore, it would be misleading to say that this is 'my' version (as if i edited the text there). This is the version of the Septuagint minus the deuterocanonical books (at least for the module in the 'Bibles' downloads). This gives me the idea to also include the whole Septuagint as a book module.

Quote:
This software is not free.

This software is free.

Quote:
It took time to download, install and install the Bibles only to find out that they're missing 20% or more of the Old Testament text because of your personal prejudices.

It took me 7 years and thousands of hours to make this software. It takes time for me to answer your comments. I do so without requesting money. I don't know of any other way to do something for free, sorry. If you do, please tell me and i will do.

Quote:
This was not mentioned next to the Bibles.

Correct. I will fix this, thank you for your suggestion.

Quote:
You're deciding what is and is not Scripture for people.

No, i decide what is Scripture and what is not only for my software. People are free to disagree.

Quote:
Since you're not charging, that's fine, but that still doesn't mean that it's free for the people who use it.

With any reasonable definition of 'free', this software is free, sorry.
It would be interesting to understand how the definition of 'free' varies depending on the inclusion or not of the deuterocanonicals. Would the software be free if it included them?
Unless your point is that there is nothing free since just by examining something, it takes time (which is money). With that definition, it's not even free to breath. But, i am pretty sure that when i write on the site 'Free Software', i give EXACTLY what people have in mind with the word 'free'. If not, help me out and suggest what i should say.

Quote:
If you want to insert your personal prejudice and change the texts of Scripture to suit yourself you're certainly allowed to do that since it's your software,

I inserted my personal prejudice on the day i wrote the first line of code for this software. My prejudice was this: i decided to do a software for the Bible, as *I* understand it. I didn't create a software for any 'Bible'. This would have made the software more popular, and i would surely have pleased more people (like you). I would also have avoided bitter comments for people that step by, install the software, don't find the deuterocanonicals and then come back and downplay the whole program claiming that it's not free; surely this is discouraging, believe me (let me say that i have also worked about 2 months on the installer and uninstaller, to make sure that once you uninstall it, no trace will be left behind).
Anyway, I didn't make this software for money. I could have made more money if i have given my time in any other way.

Quote:
but you should at least make it clear in the Bible listing that the books most people expect to find in those translations will not be there because you think that they don't belong, and so that they don't go looking for the Douay-Rheims Challoner Revision only to find out that it's really the Douay-Rheims Costas Revision.

Correct. I agree, i will state it more clearly. Honestly, it never occured to me that i should do so, but now that you bring it up i totally agree with you.
Moreover, i see that it would be useful to also include the Bibles with deuterocanonicals as Books, so people do have the whole 'Bible' the way they expect it, but in the Book view.

Costas


Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:10 pm
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Posts: 105
Location: Slovakia
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
csterg wrote:
Moreover, i see that it would be useful to also include the Bibles with deuterocanonicals as Books, so people do have the whole 'Bible' the way they expect it, but in the Book view.


I would be very happy with this. I am a Catholic and the deuterocanonical books are as important to me as the rest of the bible. But I also respect the view of Costas. That is why I have the deuterocanonical books in book view. The Slovak language bible file for TW that I made contains its DC books in book format included with the installer. This was because the copyright stipulates that the digital format of the bible must be as close as the printed version which includes the DC. I don't see a problem with including the DC books as book files with the bibles that contain it.

In the meantime, if anyone wants the deuterocanonical books of the Douay Rheims, Vulgate, or KJV (apocrypha) i create and uploaded them:

Douay Rheims DC

Vulgate DC

KJV DC (apocrypha)

Thank you for your great program Costas, keep up the good work.

Michel


Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:16 pm
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Post Re: Apocrypha Support
bengland wrote:
If you want to insert your personal prejudice and change the texts of Scripture to suit yourself you're certainly allowed to do that since it's your software...

This is the exact point. The author does not believe he is removing the texts of Scripture, for he does not believe they are Scripture. The assumption made in the quote above is that it is Scripture indeed that is being removed. As Costas aply said, when the decision was made long ago to only accommodate the widely accepted versification, which of necessity includes only the 66 Books, he knew that it meant an exclusion of apocryphal books. If you are concerned with having a Bible that includes those, there are many, many websites and applications that offer it, or you can download the apocrypha from the links DrMikey has provided.

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Adam


Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:40 am
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Post Re: Apocrypha Support
This is a new thought for me too! Let's call the KJV module that is listed the KJV Costas revision, Since it too originally had the Apochrypha (or at least part of it). This argument is getting silly. TW is becoming a great program and has about all I wish for. Some of the commercial programs have some nice features but to me those are not worth the hundreds of dollars or more they cost. And I couldn't afford them anyway. Thank you, Costas, for all your hard work. It is greatly appreciated.


Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:18 am
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Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:18 am
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Post Re: Apocrypha Support
Let me begin by writing, I would definitely like to see a book version of the apocrypha, for their general historicity, especially the books of the Maccabees.
mathetes wrote:
This is a new thought for me too! Let's call the KJV module that is listed the KJV Costas revision, Since it too originally had the Apochrypha (or at least part of it). This argument is getting silly. TW is becoming a great program and has about all I wish for. Some of the commercial programs have some nice features but to me those are not worth the hundreds of dollars or more they cost. And I couldn't afford them anyway. Thank you, Costas, for all your hard work. It is greatly appreciated.

Yes, the apocrypha were included in the Authorized Version, but as popular historical literature. They were sandwiched between the old and new testaments, not interspersed within the canon of Holy Scripture. The AV translators were aware that these books weren't Holy Scripture, but felt they contained enough value as literature to be included. Read the preface to the AV and you might better understand the AV translators' motives for including the apocrypha.


Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:45 pm
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Post Re: Apocrypha Support
Quote:
csterg wrote:
Moreover, i see that it would be useful to also include the Bibles with deuterocanonicals as Books, so people do have the whole 'Bible' the way they expect it, but in the Book view.

Quote:
I would be very happy with this. I am a Catholic and the deuterocanonical books are as important to me as the rest of the bible. But I also respect the view of Costas. That is why I have the deuterocanonical books in book view.

DrMikey,
Thank you for your highly thoughtful and insightful comments. It's easy to show respect toward those with whom we agree, but it takes effort to find common ground with those who hold different points of view. As we are told in scripture, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God," and it is refreshing to come across a person like you who takes this to heart. As an evangelical Christian, I respect that you stood up for the teachings of your Church regarding the deuterocanonical books, but I also especially appreciate that you respect the views Costas holds too. Like you, I think he has put together a great software program, and it's my hope that thousands of Catholics from around the world will choose to use it. In my opinion, he's doing everything he can to come up with a solution that will not violate his deeply held beliefs. It's hard for me to imagine how anyone can expect more than this.
Best wishes,
Jay


Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:42 am
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Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:03 pm
Posts: 105
Location: Slovakia
Post Re: Apocrypha Support
Nicely said Jay. Thank you :D


Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:40 am
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