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 Copying verses from "Verse List" 
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:24 pm
Posts: 417
Post Copying verses from "Verse List"
This is technically not a bug or error, but almost.

I would like to mention one of the many reasons for which I have trouble using the "verse list" window, and use it only sparingly.

The first reason is simply that it is very unintuitive for doing the simplest thing: copying verses.

Of course, we all know how to use "copy verses" while reading the Bible in Bible view. In fact, there is a handy shortcut for that: one simply selects the verse needed by clicking on it, and then clicking on F5. The "copy verses" dialog box appears, and so on.

But with "verse list," you would think that it had been designed by a different person, as it is inconsistent with that method.

For example, let's assume that I have 40 verses saved to a "verse list" in bible view, and that each verse relates to "obedience." When I want to select one of those 40 verses from "verse list," to copy and paste into a word processor document, as is my custom with any other Bible text in Bible view, I simply click on the verse needed, and then click the F5 keyboard shortcut, expecting to see the "copy verses" dialog box appear, and I do. I immediately copy whatever is in that dialog box, without even reading it, because, up until now, it has never failed me in any other part of the program. So, next, I go to my word processor and paste the text that I have just copied. To my surprise, it is not the same verse that I had clicked on. Why not? Because, while "copy verses" works in Bible view when reading the Bible, unfortunately "copy verses" does not work in Bibleview when displaying selected verses from a "verse list".

Go figure.

"Oh, yes, but you can certainly copy from 'verse list' using another unique process that I will be happy to explain," you might say.

Well, the point is, why is it not consisten? What's wrong with using the same method that we have been using all day long while reading the Bible text? After all, this is not a separate type of window; it is still a Bibleview window, so we expect Bibleview behavior. The items in "verse list" are "verses," so one would expect that "copy verses" would copy those verses.

Anyway, as "copy verses" mysteriously fails to function in this situation described above, I go to my Plan B. Namely, I will use the even more intuitive way to copy a verse from "verse list", which is simply by clicking on the verse, then right clicking, and looking for a context menu-item called "copy" or perhaps "copy verse" or "copy selection." So, I make my essay to prove my hypothesis. I right click. I discover ten options in the context menu that appears. Interestingly, the only one that I need is grayed out. It is called "copy selection." I am now frustrated. (So far, ten wasted minutes have passed.) I ask myself why the most important option on the menu would be the only option unavailable.

Then I suddenly remember that someone once told me that by accidentally clicking on blank space within the verse lists, such as after the final word, there might be unusual behavior from the selection made. I was told that this was corrected in a later version, but I decide to try anyway. I try clicking any text within that one verse, rather than any blank space, but still, I get no active option for copying that one verse to the clipboard. The option is still grayed out.

So, I try clicking on the Bible reference, itself, rather than the text of the verse that follows it. In fact, before I can right click, just by left-clicking alone, I immediately get the context menu with nine options, and the one I need is still grayed out. No new items appear on the context menu this way, so I am still out of luck.

I was tempted to go to the manual again, but for something so simple as copying one verse from a "verse list", I could not convince myself to stoop to that level. "Surely the process would be more intuitive than this," I thought. I could understand, if it were a question of copying a verse from a "tool tip" window or from a window title bar or something like that, but shucks! from a "verse list," why should it be so complicated?

Then it occurs to me that there are viewer icons (or whatever they are called in this view. I say to myself, "If Bibleview behaves one way with Bible text, and yet another unusual way when viewing a "verse list," perhaps the icons are no longer called "viewer icons" here either; perhaps their function also changes, or perhaps I will get a new icon on the bar. (By the way, these are the only icons in the whole program that I cannot easily decipher without the aid of "tool tips," so I have to go turn on the tool tips temporarily, in the meantime, just to know the functions and consequently, which ones to click on. I know that you put a lot of work into them, so I sympathize). (By now fifteen minutes have passed, I guess.)

So, I go to the viewer icons. To my surprise, I see only these icons:

Contents
Add verse to list
New verse list
Save verse list
Rename verse list
Copy verse list
Erase verse list
Click to set the number of columns you want for your list
Increase font size
Decrease font size
Print current verse list
Click to enter grab mode

Isn't it funny how, among all the viewer icons here in "verse list", none of them invites you to copy the individual verse selected?

That is kind of like having a spreadsheet program that allows the user to export all the data to any format, but does not allow him to copy data from any one cell.

Of couse, the closest option to what I am looking for is "copy verse list." I am tempted to "copy verse list," but I don't need all 40 verses--only one. I wonder whether I should copy them all anyway, and then delete 39 from the document that I intend to past them into? "There must be a better way," I say. "Maybe I should go back to reading the printed Bible, just for today, as time is limited."

I go back to the idea of trying to figure out how to convert my grayed-out "copy selection" menu item into something active and usable. Should I reboot? Maybe it is a temporary glitch in the system.

I pay close attention to that grayed-out expression "copy selection" and find it strange that it should not say "copy selected verse," in the singular, or "copy verse" or even "copy verses." "Perhaps it was not meant to copy only one verse, but only multiple verses," I say to myself.

I try selecting several verses with the cursor, even though I really only need one of them. Now that grayed-out context-menu option suddenly becomes active, no longer grayed out. "Hooray! I am getting closer," I say to myself. "Maybe I can now attempt to fool the program by gradually de-selecting verses, one at a time, until I am left with only the one verse that I need." I give it a try. It works.

Now it suddenly dawns on me what was wrong all along...

It seems that, in this program, "select verse" does not mean "choose verse," "click on verse," "highlight desired verse," or any such thing, but only rather "drag the cursor over the text of the verse, from the beginning all the way to the end."

I try this approach, and it works fine. Now I see. Twenty minutes into this struggle, I have finally figured it out.

As a former English teacher, I decided to go through the manual and see how the word "select" was used in other contexts. Apparently it means "choose" in some contexts (as by "choosing" an option in a dialog box") but it means "highlight" or "drag the cursor over" in other contexts, such as when dealing with text operations. The program was expecting me to "select" in the second sense, rather than in the first.

Of course, this is inconsistent behavior for Bibleview-window readings, as we normally "select" or "choose" any verse by simply clicking on it--not by dragging the cursor across it. It is always good enough for "copy verses" when we do that, for example. In fact, when we "click on" any verse while reading the Bible, the verse is suddenly "outlined" or "boxed in" anyway, to "prove" that it has been "selected" for some subsequent operation. In fact, as if that weren't enough, the background color of the verse is even changed, to prove that this is indeed the "selected" verse for whatever operation we happen to have in mind after that. In fact, as you know, that background color can even be changed, in "bible view options", in the part called "current verse highlighting color". In sum, in Bibleview window readings, the user merely clicks a verse, and the verse becomes very clearly "marked" or "selected/chosen" for a future operation, such as to "copy verses," and yet now, in another part of the exact same Bibleview window, when in "list view," none of these characteristics has any bearing, and "copy verses" no longer works. Rather, what I mean to say is that "copy verses" works, but it does not copy the selected verse, because it is not properly "selected" but rather only "chosen."

Anyway, no more time for Bible reading this morning, as I have to work now.

My suggestions are these:

In addition to keeping the current TW behavior on this point exactly the same, I suggest these important additions:

1. Allow the "copy verses" dialog box to copy any chosen verse from "verse list" by simply clicking on the verse in question. This would be the very best solution.
2. Allow any verse in "verse list" to be copied merely be clicking on the verse.
3. In this case, allow CTRL+C to make the copy,
4. In this case, add "copy" to the context menu, or rather, simply activate the grayed-out option.
4. In this case, add a very simple "copy verse" icon to the viewer icons, but do not require the selected verse to be fully "drag-selected", but only to be clicked upon, in order to activate the icon.

_________________
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I'm an Independent Baptist running TheWord portable v 5.0.0.1481 from an external 500GB hard drive with over 1,900 modules installed and loaded in my current module set. I'm using 32-bit Vista Ultimate SP1 with a 2.7gHz processor and 4GB RAM.
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Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:18 pm
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Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:34 pm
Posts: 3462
Post Re: Copying verses from "Verse List"
Maybe the text on the menu would be clearer if it said 'Copy selected text'.

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Jon
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Word 5 Bible Software
OS for testing; Windows 10
Beta Download ------Beta Setup Guide------On-line Manual------Tech doc's and Utilities------Copyright Factsheet


Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:13 am
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:24 pm
Posts: 417
Post Re: Copying verses from "Verse List"
Well, if all you want is a work-around, I would be disappointed, since click-selecting is already so intuitive in other contexts for Bibleview, and because the "copy verses" dialog is so useful. I would rather see you perfect the program by making that little adjustment, for the sake of consistency and utility.

Nevertheless, in the meantime, I will propose a temporary work-around for you, and even include a screenshot below.

Namely, you need to place signposts everywhere, so that the user will understand that--unlike in normal Bibleview behavior--to copy verses from List View he must first drag-select the desired text. I suggest putting that message at the top of the verse list, as well as in the context menu, among other places.

I suppose you could even make a bogus "copy" icon to include with the other icons, (for people who would naturally expect to find one) that would only serve to pull up a message when clicked, saying "To copy any verse from List View, you must first drag the cursor over the text to be copied, then right click, then select "copy selection" from the context menu (or click CTRL+C)"

Doing this would warn the user at three different checkpoints: the window heading, the context menu, and any icon he might think to click. Be sure to explain in detail in the "help file" also.

Meanwhile, see the screenshot below.

(By the way, I forgot that the icons were explained in the status bar, without the need of tool tips. Sorry)


Attachments:
drag select.jpg
drag select.jpg [ 352.89 KiB | Viewed 168 times ]

_________________
.
I'm an Independent Baptist running TheWord portable v 5.0.0.1481 from an external 500GB hard drive with over 1,900 modules installed and loaded in my current module set. I'm using 32-bit Vista Ultimate SP1 with a 2.7gHz processor and 4GB RAM.
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Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:36 am
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Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:34 pm
Posts: 3462
Post Re: Copying verses from "Verse List"
Thanks

_________________
Jon
the
Word 5 Bible Software
OS for testing; Windows 10
Beta Download ------Beta Setup Guide------On-line Manual------Tech doc's and Utilities------Copyright Factsheet


Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:04 am
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